谈谈对大克的看法

冷冰冰

我可以很负责的告诉你，依然是TKO~
510802818 发表于 2010-4-25 23:14

我认为未必！可以参考拉曼VS托尼第二战，拉曼在第三回合局间休息时说他受伤不能比赛，最后被判比赛无结果！
大克吃亏就在于拖到第6回合，伤口扩大（当然这里从侧面也反映了刘易斯的实力，能继续造成大克伤口恶化）被判负。
这场裁决本身没什么问题（因为碰上具体情况），但是并不代表刘易斯的实力就比大克强。就好比大克VS博德一样，大克受伤导致场面陷入被动，如果继续坚持，可能产生对大克更不利的后果，但是仅仅这场比赛，不能证明博德比大克强！

冷冰冰

在第三回合或第四回合休息时，医务监督就说了，要注意观察大克的伤口。
千说万说也改变不了的推理，是医务 ...
510802818 发表于 2010-4-25 23:30

你的观点，主观部分太多。SIM则引用了大量的视频为依据。他的说法比你的主观臆断有说服力。

老唐

我认为未必！可以参考拉曼VS托尼第二战，拉曼在第三回合局间休息时说他受伤不能比赛，最后被判比赛无结 ...
冷冰冰 发表于 2010-4-26 07:27

比赛时，由于意外因素受伤，会被判无结果。

正常击打，则是KO。

他的视频随你怎么看，录象很容易找到``

shimartin

在第三回合或第四回合休息时，医务监督就说了，要注意观察大克的伤口。
千说万说也改变不了的推理，是医务监督已经认为，大克丧失了继续比赛的能力。510802818 发表于 2010-4-25 23:30

您没有发现自己的逻辑存在致命缺陷吗？

===============越是竭力地证明老刘第三回合如何如何发威，大克第三回合如何如何被动，伤口如何如何可怕，对照下大克拿下第六回合点数的结果，越是说明那个伤口对大克的负面影响随着时间的推移反而没有那么严重了——不是说伤口立即复原，而是老刘的体能下降比大克的体能下降+伤口恶化更迅速。

第三回合第四回合就需要注意大克的伤口了，可结果呢？老刘好不容易在第五回合捞了个10-9点数，结果到第六回合又被大克抢了回来。上面那么多第六回合截图，大克那些重拳打得老刘东倒西歪，莫非都是另外一个位面发生的事情？

第三回合第四回合大克越不济，那么就越发衬托出第六回合的趋势对大克有利，对老刘不利。您最好还是先梳理清楚自己的逻辑再说话，不然说多错多哦。

shimartin

至于有些人喜欢说，是裁判剥夺了大克胜利的权利也好，什么也好，在官方只承认TKO-----这就是结论！

510802818 发表于 2010-4-25 23:30

您又说错了。

首先，我们在这里是通过比赛来讨论大克和老刘谁的实力高，而不是具体哪一场比赛既成的胜负结果如何。您在无法举证、无力论证的情况下，只能紧咬一个“官方判决”，很显然是偏题了。希望您能够弄清楚这里讨论的话题和对象是什么，也弄清楚您自己要说什么、想说什么、在说什么。


其次，官方的判决结果未必可奉为圭臬，我们应当根据具体情况来判断，而不是觉得对于偶像有利就拿官方的帽子压人。特别典型的：1986年墨西哥世界杯上，马拉多纳的上帝之手让阿根廷取胜。英格兰确实那场比赛的失利更改不了，可在大众心目中的口碑呢？马拉多纳到底有没有手球？这个答案不难回答吧？

1996年亚特兰大奥运会，李小双的自由体操金牌被裁判黑掉，给了希腊的爱欧尼斯-梅利桑尼迪斯，这种黑幕是有目共睹的，同样被黑的还有涅莫夫。

现在回头看看拳击，霍刘一战虽然判平，但在大众心目中的口碑还是霍输了。二战则恰好相反，刘赢得了同情，享受了矫枉过正和舆论倾向的支持。还有各种各样的黑哨、幕后推手、暗箱操作等。如果我们无法了解一场比赛的细节，自然是按照胜负去判断实力高下。但倘若整个比赛的每个瞬间都可以去细究，你还执著于一个官方判决结果，那么很显然，你倘若不是无知，就是在躲避什么。至于躲避的对象，谁躲谁心里明白，旁观者也有很多明白。

第三，WBC自己也感到了争议性的存在，而且舆论也有作用，不然不会对老刘施加压力，要组织克刘二战。http://sports.qq.com/a/20040203/000013.htm

暗箱操作刘易斯难保金腰带 38岁拳王暗示想退休

面对ＷＢＣ重量级拳王金腰带一直悬而未决的局面，世界拳击理事会（ＷＢＣ）终于失去了耐心。日前他们向现任金腰带拥有者刘易斯下达了最后通牒，最迟３月１日必须做出决定，要么和克利钦科重赛，要么放弃自己的金腰带。

　　都是受伤惹的祸

　　事情的起因缘于去年６月在洛杉矶进行的那场血腥的拳王卫冕战。在那场比赛中，克利钦科由于受伤被终止了比赛，但是当是三名裁判给出的比分均是克利钦科比分领先。

　　在比赛结束后，刘易斯认为自己已经卫冕成功，根据卫冕战的规定，在下一场比赛中应该由自己选择对手。

　　而从目前情况来看，这次ＷＢＣ站在了克利钦科一边。ＷＢＣ说，如果刘易斯决定不与克利钦科重赛，他将被取消拳王头衔。两位排名最高的挑战者克利钦科和考瑞·桑德斯将争夺空出的重量级拳王王位。ＷＢＣ主席苏莱曼同时给了刘易斯和克利钦科整个２月的时间去达成比赛协议。如果两人到时不能达成协议，比赛将在３月１５日进行招标。

　　刘易斯想退役

　　作为第一位登上拳王位置，并一统重量级坛的英国人，刘易斯已经被看着是英国英雄。但是毕竟岁月不饶人，尤其是在这次的风波后，这位已经３８岁的拳王已经暗示自己可能退休，而不是与克利钦科重赛。

　　在过去的２６个月里，３８岁的刘易斯只打过两场比赛，与克利钦科的比赛是最近的一场。不过刘易斯的教练艾曼努尔·斯台沃德还不想放弃，他在本月早些时候说，他希望刘易斯与克利钦科重赛，而且已经告诉他的同伴做好去训练营的准备。不过选择迎战还是退缩，一切还要看刘易斯自己的决定。

shimartin

鉴于可能国内文章不够有说服力，为了证明WBC确实迫使过老刘重赛，现发上ESPN的文章。

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=1728677

Heavyweight champ Lewis retires

ESPN.com news services

LONDON -- Lennox Lewis is going out on top, and he insists he won't be back.

He retired Friday after a professional career of more than 14 years, the first active heavyweight champion to quit in nearly 50 years.

The 38-year-old boxer said that after months of deliberation he decided to leave the ring rather than defend his WBC title in a rematch against Vitali Klitschko.

"It's a special day in my life," Lewis said. "I'd like to announce that June 21, 2003, was my last fight as a professional boxer."

"It has been a great honor to be the standard bearer of boxing for the last decade," he added. "Let the next era begin."

Lewis leaves with a 41-2-1 record, and is the first reigning world heavyweight champion to quit since Rocky Marciano in 1956. The only other to do so was Gene Tunney, who retired in 1928.

"I've completed all my goals and now it's time for me say goodbye," Lewis said. "I definitely wanted to say goodbye at the top and now I am at the top."

Lewis paid tribute to his idol, Muhammad Ali, who retired with the WBA title in 1978 but came back to lose fights to Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick.

"I will definitely be the third boxer to retire as heavyweight champion, I promise you that," Lewis said in ruling out a comeback.

Lewis reportedly has plans to pursue his interest in hip-hop and rap music by promoting bands and producing records and concerts. He said he has accepted a position at a sports management agency.

Lewis, Britain's first world heavyweight champion in more than a century, fought just twice in the last 26 months. He knocked out former undisputed champion Mike Tyson in eight rounds in Memphis, Tenn., in June 2002.

"Mike Tyson was my ultimate fight," Lewis said. "That was the fight that kept me around for a long time. I didn't want to go out without facing him. I didn't want people to say that Mike Tyson was the best around."

He also defeated Klitschko in Los Angeles last June. Lewis was behind on points when the fight was stopped in the sixth round because Klitschko was cut.

The WBC mandated a rematch and ordered Lewis to agree to the fight by March 1 or risk being stripped of the title.

"I am sad to hear that Lennox Lewis has decided to retire, but I respect him for his decision," Klitschko said in a statement Friday. "Lennox was one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time and I am very proud and honored to say that I was able to fight him. I know I had him on the ropes and almost beat him, but my cuts stopped me.

"On a personal level, I am disappointed, like the millions of boxing fans, that there will not be a rematch between Lennox and myself. I wish him all the best, however, in whatever he decides to do in the future. Lennox was a credit to the sport for many, many years and his presence will be missed."

Lewis hadn't even told HBO what he planned to do. The television network paid him millions to fight and had been waiting for months for him to commit to a second Klitschko fight. Lewis said he made up his mind two weeks ago in New York.

"I was thinking about it for a long time. Should I go back in and have one more fight?" he said. "But I realized this is the drug of the sport. There is always one more fight and somebody to fight. I didn't want to get caught up in it, and I thought that this is the time when I should gracefully bow out.

"I respect the sport of boxing. Boxing has done so much for me and one of the reasons I am retiring is out of respect for the sport. It's time for the younger generation."

With Lewis retired, Klitschko is expected to meet No. 2 contender Corrie Sanders for the WBC title. Lewis said the Klitschko brothers, Vitali and Wladimir, Sanders and another British fighter, 2000 Olympic super-heavyweight champion Audley Harrison, were the most likely to succeed him as WBC champion.

"The challenge is out to them to do what I've done over the past decade," Lewis said.

A heavyweight who stood 6-foot-5 but had the boxing skills of a smaller man, Lewis won an Olympic gold medal for Canada in Seoul, South Korea, in 1988 and went on to win the heavyweight title three times. Despite his impressive record, Lewis' performances tended to be plodding rather than inspiring.

His two knockout losses -- to Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman -- were major upsets, but he went on to beat both in rematches. His one draw came against Holyfield in a fight most observers felt Lewis won. He later beat Holyfield on points to become undisputed world champion.

Lewis said he has accepted a position at a sports management agency.

Lewis became Britain's first major world heavyweight champion since the 1880s when Riddick Bowe relinquished the WBC crown in 1992, dumping the belt in a trash can. Lewis retained the title in the ring a year later by beating Tony Tucker and became undisputed champion in 1999 when he won a rematch with Holyfield.

Despite Lewis' insistence that his retirement was final, British bookmaker William Hill offered odds of 7-2 that he will fight again within two years.

shimartin

WBC当然不会扇裁判的嘴巴，说“第一场判决结果我们推翻”。不管这个比赛结果怎么不合理，已经是既成事实了，那就通过二战来弥补吧。WBC的用意非常明显，绝大多数观众也能看得出来。第一场存在明显的disputed因素，所以二战是非常能够说明问题的。

结果呢？看到大克两回合秒杀实力强悍的Kirk Johnson，又连续击败老刘主动为之充当狗头军师的Danny Williams和Corrie Sanders，老刘每看一次，都必然想起2002年的那个让自己恐惧又无力的夜晚。

shimartin

而从拳迷的角度，克迷可以保持你个人的观点。

我个人的观点，如果有第7回合，大克将遭受毁灭性的打击。

我不想将这个观点强加于任何人，你认同也好，不认同也好。

510802818 发表于 2010-4-25 23:30

从拳迷的角度，刘迷可以保持你个人的观点。但在理性客观分析面前，你的观点总是显得那么无力和苍白。视频也给了，截图也给了，主持人的评论自己去听，黑人白人的生理差异以及运动生理学分析也给你讲解了，听懂听不懂，那不是我的责任。

我不像你那么武断。我只是这样看：如果有第7回合，根据老刘喘气幅度更大、后脑拳击中大克后居然挡不住对方身躯的压迫从而一起踉跄等细节看，老刘的体能下降更严重。最终在1、体能 2、意志 3、抗击打能力三个至关重要的方面，都是大克占据明显上风。所以继续比赛的结果是什么趋势，很容易看得出来。

至于大克是不是结束后因为眼皮破裂而导致后遗症，我没把握判断。裁判终止比赛是这个原因，而不是说大克没有力量没有体能去比赛了，也不是说大克被伤痛折磨得失去战斗力了。

shimartin

在第三到第六回合之间，大克至少遭到了三次非常沉重的上钩拳击打，左眼已经模糊不堪，在第三回合出现的左眼睑创口之后，上下嘴唇，颧骨，整个脸部至少出现了五个创口------这可不是一次击打能够造成的！

这些伤口的出现，说明刘易斯的进攻很有效。

510802818 发表于 2010-4-25 23:30

一、您又在选择性陈述了。前面我给了截图。第六回合中间，老刘是打出一个比较强劲的uppercut，大克遭到打击后被迫主动搂抱。看起来非常致命，可惜大克是什么样的抗打击能力和意志品质？14秒之后也是一记uppercut击中老刘，而且分量并不比自己遭受的那拳轻多少。在这里您只提老刘的uppercut，对大克的有效进攻闭口不提，倘若没有视频佐证，听起来仿佛大克变成了第二个毒瘾发作的麦考尔了。您这种描述，不知道是给自己的论证增光添彩，还是在贬损抹黑？

二、大克的伤口，我强调过很多次原因，白人面部末梢循环丰富，特别东欧人更明显，因为他们生存环境偏寒带。如果因为创口就能判定失利，请问小克和Thompson的比赛中，小克也挂彩了，可最后被TKO的是哪位？亚瑟王和米兰达的比赛，谁的创伤在中途更加严重？而最后谁是胜利者？

三、老刘的进攻当然得有点效果，不然那几十下powerful punch命中都到哪里去了？而最终计算powerful punch命中次数，又是谁更多？老刘遭到重创的时候，阁下就视而不见了？前面我关于搂抱的陈述里就能看到部分对老刘的重大打击。当然，倘若阁下一心痴爱着老刘，那么即便是拉曼和麦考尔打的那一拳，也可以尽情无视。

shimartin

这些伤口的出现，说明刘易斯的进攻很有效。

第六回合最后半分钟，大克只能搂抱拖延时间，刘易斯放出上钩，大克根本无法做出正常的躲避动作。克迷能稍做借口的是，刘易斯鼻梁出现的创口。

对于这个创口，我的看法是，如此小的伤口，根本无法影响刘易斯的视力，不关乎刘易斯的战斗力。

510802818 发表于 2010-4-25 23:30

真不知道您的理解能力怎么就如此让人无语。

首先，我们评判的是实力如何，之后才是场上表现如何，而受伤程度只是场上表现的一个方面。而阁下所坚持的，严格意义上说甚至连受伤程度都不算，只能算是受伤外观。

本来黑人肤色就能够对伤口进行视觉上的干扰，到底是白皮肤流血明显，还是黑皮肤流血明显？何况我已经反复强调过，同样的打击，对于黑人和白人造成内伤可能效果一致，但造成皮肤表面的创口则会有较大差别。阁下要是懂一点人种之间的差异，也就不会如此冥顽了。还有一点，前面我也说过，老刘的创口位置是在鼻梁附近，大克的创口位置是在眉弓。这两个地方哪儿更容易开口？懂点儿生理常识的都明白。那么在鼻梁上开口，需要施加多大力度的打击？比用手套擦一个伤口要强悍吧？从这里可以推断出，大克对老刘的那一击，分量远远超过老刘擦出伤口的那一拳。

阁下直接从受伤外观跳跃到实力的判断上，倘若不是跳跃性思维阻断了理性判断，那就是缺乏最起码的常识和论证分析心态。